Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

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2Salty
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by 2Salty »

Salty Gator wrote:I'm not going down this hole again. You just did. I'll say that what people use to fish out of has nothing to do with it. What people use to fish out of has much to do with it. If 10 anglers in motorized vessels, with greater range and the ability to move from 1 spot to another in far less time, can't find and catch more fish than 10 anglers in kayaks on a given day in the same amount of time in the same general locale then the anglers in the motorized vessels must not be good anglers. Meat hogs ( a derogatory sounding term targeted at anglers lawfully and legally following regulations, kinda elitist and snobby IMO) will keep everything, catch and release guys keep nothing and there is everyone in between. The original point was that with cheaper kayaks available more people are pressuring flats fish. And more people in motorized vessels are pressuring flats fishing due to growing restrictions on recreational offshore fishing.Then you said something irrelevant (It wasn't irrelevant, rather it was in reply to a previous poster's comment. Was that poster's comment also irrelevant? Are you the Relevancy Police?) about if more people fished out of plastic boats, then there would be more fish??. You keep missing it - I repeat I said if EVERYONE was fishing in kayaks ONLY there'd be more fish. Seriously, how can you say that if you keep every keeper fish you catch? Nor did I say I keep every keeper fish I catch. And if I catch 10 reds in a day, more survive than if you catch one. Sure about that? How? But by all means keep releasing them. have a good day
Last edited by 2Salty on December 4th, 2016, 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Pirate
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by Pirate »

So if I understand where this is going would eliminating all floating craft help solve the decline in flats fish? It would be cheaper than owning two boats. I'd have a yak also if I thought I could sit in that position more than five minutes!
People that catch a lot of fish fish a lot!
2Salty
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by 2Salty »

Pirate wrote:So if I understand where this is going would eliminating all floating craft help solve the decline in flats fish? It would be cheaper than owning two boats. I'd have a yak also if I thought I could sit in that position more than five minutes!
And against my better judgment, I'd have a boat with a motor - if I could afford it :-D .

Increasing pressure on flat fishing, by ALL anglers, is but 1 part of the equation. Continuing decline of habitat quality is another, very significant part of the same equation.

Great stories of abundancy from years gone by were before loss of sea grasses due to various toxic components of run-off from land (as well as numerous other man-made alterations causing degredation).
Pirate
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by Pirate »

It wouldn't hurt so bad if we didn't know better. Of course freshwater fisherman are floored when they hit the salt at numbers and variety. I guess if we all do our part and law enforcement will stay on the illegal activities maybe it will rebound.
People that catch a lot of fish fish a lot!
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big bend gyrene
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by big bend gyrene »

2Salty wrote:Great stories of abundancy from years gone by were before loss of sea grasses due to various toxic components of run-off from land (as well as numerous other man-made alterations causing degredation).
Just to be clear, tannic acid from leaves staining water is a pretty natural phenomenon even if one that kills grasses when the local dark water rivers flood and fill the bay.

For what it's worth, when I first wrote about my own personal observations of the grass die offs after flooding events between 2005 and the decade that followed a number of old-timers said it had happened before in the distant past when similar flooding events happened and that, just as it has the past 2 years, the flats rebounded with grass growth in surprisingly short order.

Not saying that fertilizers nor pollutants such as with the Fenholloway can't impact fishing... but AM saying that the biggest factor in the decade following 2005 were flooding events that had tannic acid stained waters so dark flowing into the bay that light couldn't make it to / feed the grass growth. Lack of grass led to lack of bait (no where to hide), and lack of bait led to lack of predator fish. Past couple of years with less flooding led to renewed grass growth, bait coming back to the flats (know because I target pins nearly every trip for offshore bait and also dive for scallops and noted MASSIVE areas of grass die off when the bay got too darkly stained), and with the bait back we're now seeing the inshore bite picking back up (for all the nay-saying have to look no further than a few very solid reports this week to see that the bay is far from fishless :beer: .
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank GOD for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
two tooth
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by two tooth »

I don't post much, but these threads are interesting. For context, my grandfather was a guide back when folks would use wooden row boats and ride the tide to and fro the river mouth. I grew up with his stories of fishing back in the good ol days and fished with him a ton when he was still with us.

His experiences (and the pictures I've seen) differed a good bit from some of the posts here. No doubt the fishing pressure was less back then. But, it was still fishing. And, grandpa was not only a guide but also a net fisherman. Most coastal families were as well. There were no regulations and a ton of fish were killed indiscriminately. I remember talking to my grandfather about the biggest trout he ever caught (close to 10 pounds) and it wasn't on hook/line, it was in a net. So, pressure is relative. And, all that led to a situation where the redfish and trout populations were in severe danger about 30 years ago. Then we had the back and forth over the net ban and complete closures of certain gamefish species to help them rebound.

I do think the fishing this past year in particular was down. However, in another part of the state where I have family and which has as much or more pressure as here, the inshore fishery is as good as its ever been. So, I wonder how much the winter rains, the various floods, etc have impacted the fishery in the short term. I absolutely think pressure impacts the fish, but I also think it's a little foolish not to consider where things were 25-30 years ago as well. I also would be all for closing the trout fishery for the entire month of February like they used to.
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big bend gyrene
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by big bend gyrene »

Briefly mentioned positive grass growth witnessed scalloping this year... should have added that this year scalloping out of Econfina was as good as I've EVER seen it. Honestly had just as much luck out of Econfina as I've ever had on the grounds just east of St. Marks that draw the "fleet" traffic. Went 3 times throughout the summer and had zero problem collecting limit each trip. Grass looked SUPER healthy in spots that were completely void of grass just a few years earlier.

Here's hoping that we have a few more years ahead with continued healthy grass-growth conditions. :thumbup:
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank GOD for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
rockyg
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by rockyg »

Fish populations change from year to year in my experience. The have fins for a reason and that's to go where the conditions are best for their survival.

So what impacts fish stocks.

1) Environmental.......rain, drought, heat, cold, pollution, loss of habitat. We can't control the weather, and in our area we don't have the pollution and loss of habitat problems they do in other parts of the state.....but that may change in the future.

2) Technology.......fast reliable engines, capable boats, GPS, Satellite Images, new lures, lines, equipment. It's easier than ever before to get to the fish and more people start fishing every year.

3) Information......Forums, blogs, videos......it's never been easier to learn to fish, what to use, and where the fish are. If you post a picture showing an identifiable background with detailed date and time info expect to be fishing in a crowd next weekend.

4) Greed......600 yard mono gil nets, keeping just a few extras, taking your limit back to the dock and going back out again, keeping under/over size fish, killing the biggest and best breeding females of any species.

So, basically it's on us. Some care what happens....most don't.
“It's hard to measure almost.....because almost doesn't matter”
― John Dutton
2Salty
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by 2Salty »

"This report describes the status and trends of seagrass communities in estuaries and nearshore waters of Florida."

http://myfwc.com/research/habitat/seagr ... tive/simm/
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big bend gyrene
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by big bend gyrene »

2Salty wrote:"This report describes the status and trends of seagrass communities in estuaries and nearshore waters of Florida."

http://myfwc.com/research/habitat/seagr ... tive/simm/
Thanks for the share, 2Salty. Hoping you took the time to read the reports for our big bend region as they spoke rather extensively to water clarity being impacted by storms / flooding (versus man made problems or man related pollutants).

Will be interesting to see if the perceived grass recovery I mentioned observing this year is actually reflected in the future reports.
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank GOD for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
2Salty
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by 2Salty »

Abundant and healthy beds of sea grasses play a vital role in the productivity of marine ecosystems.

Oysters are also very important. Consider the condition of Apalachicola Bay where oysters have been decimated.

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[from http://health.wusf.usf.edu/post/uf-cons ... n#stream/0 ]

The struggling reefs serve as a natural buffer for the coast, and trap the freshwater that helps estuaries thrive. Oysters are a keystone species, meaning coastal ecosystems crumble without them.
“One of the big ecosystem benefits of these particular long-shore reefs is to actually maintain the shellfish and sport fishing and commercial fishing that is so characteristic of estuaries,” he said.
Focusing on the coast from Horseshoe Beach to Crystal River, Frederick’s team has documented an 88% decline in offshore oyster reefs over the past thirty years, and a 66% decline in all oyster reefs, which they suspect is due to a lack of freshwater.
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big bend gyrene
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by big bend gyrene »

Not sure I'm following the logic thread behind the shares, 2Salty... first post you shared seemed to loosely point a finger to man-caused issues, the link next shared spoke to extensive flooding associated with storms, and last post speaks to too much salinity as a primary concern. I don't think anyone can debate the flooding issue / stained water / lack of light leading to grass die offs as the data driven reports you shared speak pretty clearly to the issue... man-related pollutants and excess salinity? Not sure I'm seeing nearly the supportive data on those two concerns.

And will say again, that my personal observations out of St. Marks and Econfina are that a substantial and statistically noteworthy rebound have occurred in grass growth in 2015 and 2016. The link you shared regarding grass growth couldn't possibly speak to the recovery as it was published in 2014 and thus has no data for 2015 nor 2016, the years recovery has appeared to be substantial.

The above shared, the link did clearly speak to flooding / tannic acid / too much FRESHWATER as a culprit in the grass losses between 2005 and 2014. Specifically the linked studies shared,

"Stressors include reduced optical water quality, which has resulted from elevated phytoplankton concentrations and water color in the region. Tropical storms Debby and Andrea in the early summers of 2012 and 2013, respectively, and heavy rains in July 2013 caused rivers to discharge large volumes of darkly colored, nutrient–rich water, reducing water clarity and dramatically increasing phytoplankton levels in the coastal region during the remainder of the growing season. Turbidity is elevated west of the mouth of the St. Marks River, where discharge from the Apalachicola River affects coastal waters."

"Extreme storm events in the winter of 2009–2010, tropical storms Debby and Andrea in June 2012 and 2013, respectively, and excessive rainfall in July 2013 increased water color and chlorophyll-a concentrations in coastal waters in the northern Big Bend, and they remained elevated for months after the weather events. Resulting reductions in water clarity likely contributed to observed decreases in shoot densities in seagrass beds in 2013 and 2014 and to reductions in the occurrence of seagrass species throughout the region since 2009."
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank GOD for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
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big bend gyrene
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by big bend gyrene »

And lest it come across that I'm not concerned with the ongoing state of the seagrass, nothing could be further from the truth... actually was sharing quite vocal concern back in the 2014 time frame.

http://www.bigbendfishing.net/phpBB3/vi ... 3&start=30
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank GOD for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by DixieReb »

For years now the grass has been a lot thicker down around Keaton. I can remember when grass was that thick around Econfina and Aucilla, but it seems like the last few years it has been more sparse. I hope that trend will reverse itself. I think the heavy rains have a lot to do with what's going on. Not sure how much the coast got out of this last batch, but we got 4.6''.
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2Salty
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Re: Poll: Has flats fishing gotten worse over the years?

Post by 2Salty »

"Stressors include reduced optical water quality, which has resulted from elevated phytoplankton concentrations and water color in the region. Tropical storms Debby and Andrea in the early summers of 2012 and 2013, respectively, and heavy rains in July 2013 caused rivers to discharge large volumes of darkly colored, nutrient–rich water, reducing water clarity and dramatically increasing phytoplankton levels in the coastal region during the remainder of the growing season."
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