Redfish bag limit change May 1st

[fishinfool]

I am sorry that I am so late adding to this thread, It has been busy in the car and reel repair business. Not complaining, it is what it is.
Let me start by saying that I am not a big meat angler. I do harvest a Red Drum from time to time. The overwhelming majority of Red Drum I catch are released. I do not have hard numbers, but I would estimate that I release over 80% of my catch. I eat 4-6 reds a year. I have no opinion about those who choose to harvest their legal limit. Also the bag limit, whether it is one or two per day will not affect me.
The FWC started their Red Drum survey approximately two months ago. Supposedly it was to be used in conjunction with the 2015 stock assessment. The stock assessment shows the escapement rate in the northwest region to be well above the target range of 40%. The survey is, as of this date, still open and the results are not final. The FWC as of April 7, 2016 at a fishing club meeting, encouraged anglers to participate in the survey to "help them make a decision" about the Red Drum daily bag limit in the northwest region.
On April 13, 2016 in Jupiter Florida, located in the southeast region of Florida, the commission made a decision to reduce the bag limit in our area. Given the timeline of the survey and how long it takes to compile the results (which are not complete), it seems this decision was already made .
I don't know if there is a faction which is very vocal got this started or if there are hard numbers to support this decision, but why would the FWC solicit input from the public to support a change after they decided to make it?
Something smells a little fishy here, and I don't like it.

[silverking]

At its April 13 meeting in Jupiter, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) approved a measure to lower the recreational red drum daily bag limit in the northwest red drum management zone (Escambia County through Fred Howard Park near Pasco County) from two fish to one fish per person. This change will go into effect Sunday, May 1. The daily bag limit is also one in the southwest management zone, which means after this change is effective, the daily bag limit will be one red drum per person, per day in all Gulf of Mexico state waters. All other red drum regulations remain the same, including the eight fish vessel limit and six fish per person transport limit.

These changes come as the result of stakeholder concerns that red drum populations have declined in some parts of the Panhandle region of northwest Florida since 2013, the final year of data included in the most recent stock assessment.

"The action of the Commission reflects the recreational and economic significance of the red drum fishery, as well as the value of stakeholder input in fisheries management," said FWC Commissioner Charles W. Roberts III.

Staff have been gathering public input from anglers to better determine what is being seen in their local areas via a statewide online survey, the FWC Red Drum Forum Facebook page, and by talking with anglers at fishing club meetings, boat shows, tackle shops and dockside angler intercepts. Staff are also collecting public input in the northeast region of Florida, where stock assessment population estimates indicate numbers may have seen a decline at the conclusion of the assessment period (2013). The stock is still exceeding management goals in that area.

The Commission will consider whether to continue the reduced bag limit in northwest Florida and whether any changes are needed in northeast Florida at the June 2016 meeting in Apalachicola. Staff will also continue to gather public input on red drum populations in northeast and northwest Florida, as well as across the state through the end of May.

Take our survey today at MyFWC.com/RedDrum2016.

[Salty Gator]

If you haven't been regularly getting big trout on the flats yet this year, you're not fishing in the right place! I've never seen it this good this early.

thats funny. 1-2 months ago , you would have thought trout went extinct with all of the people complaining how few there were. No one was catching their 3 man limit and the everyone was catching way too many shorts. I actually believed the sky was falling. Now they are jumping in the boat. Seems it is all pretty cyclical. Sorry to derail.

[2Salty]

...The FWC's latest stock assessment showed a decline in numbers in the Northwest region...

Not correct:

Redfish Limits Increase in Northern Florida
November 16, 2011

Florida fishermen targeting redfish in northern Florida can keep two fish starting Feb. 1, 2012, as part of management changes from the Key Largo Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) meeting November 16 and 17.

The doubled daily bag limit was approved after a recent redfish stock assessment showed that drum escapement rates (the proportion of fish surviving through age 4 relative to the number that would have survived to that age if there were no fishery) have been consistently above the FWC’s 40-percent management goal in the northern regions.

“This is our version of having a listed protected species and being able to take it off that list. This is a success story,” said Commissioner Brian Yablonski about the increased redfishing limits. “If ever there was a moment to give back, this is it.”

http://www.floridasportsman.com/2011...thern-florida/

FWC looking for input on redfish regulations
March 23, 2016

The 2015 assessment includes data through 2013 and evaluates the status of the red drum stock based on the current management goal in each of the red drum management zones. Based on the results of the assessment, red drum is healthy and exceeding the management goal throughout the state.

http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/outd...rvey/82183022/

[silverking]

Can't find it on the FWC site now, but when the survey was announced there was a chart with the most recent data that showed a noticeable downward trend in the Northwest region. The Northeast region, which is also being reviewed, had an even more dramatic decline.

The assessments are only taken every few years and by the time the data is analyzed the real-time situation may be considerably different. From a management standpoint it is always best to be proactive rather than reactive and err on the side of the resource.

[2Salty]

Can't find it on the FWC site now, but when the survey was announced there was a chart with the most recent data that showed a noticeable downward trend in the Northwest region. The Northeast region, which is also being reviewed, had an even more dramatic decline...

Here's a link to where "The 2015 stock assessment of Red Drum, Sciaenops ocellatus, in Florida" can be found:

http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/sto ... ts/finfish

Please tell us where to find the "chart" to which you've referred.

According to the 2015 assessment:

"Estimates of escapement rates exceeded the Commission’s target of 40%. The geometric mean of the escapement rates for the three years were 66% in the NW, 68% in the SW, 52% in the NE, and 48% in the SE region."

"The Red Drum fisheries in all four regions of Florida appear to be operating at low enough fishing mortality rates that survival of Red Drum is adequate to meet the Commission’s management target of 35% SPR and 40% escapement rate."

FWC reduced the limit on reds in the NW Zone from 2 to 1 based only on anecdotal information, received primarily from for-hire guides particularly in the Panhandle area who have been reporting a reduction in the red drum population.

Ironically...

"Genetic evidence suggests that estuarine-specific populations of red drum can occur and that these show some exchange with neighboring estuarine-specific populations but are increasingly isolated from populations that occur at greater and greater distances from their natal estuary. Most tag/recapture observations for inshore sub-adult red drum support the existence of estuarine-specific populations, showing little movement between or even within estuaries."

(from Regional Analysis of Florida's Gulf and Atlantic Stocks of Red Drum August 2010 Fish and Wildlife Research Institute Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission)

"In general, Florida red drum are not long-distance travelers and tend to remain in the area in which they were spawned. In tagging studies of immature red drum on Florida’s gulf coast, 50% to 85% were recaptured within six miles of their original release site."

(from Sea Stats Red Drum Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission Fish & Wildlife Research Institute)

"Rooker et al. (2010) assessed the degree of red drum population connectivity between early life and adult habitats in the northwestern GOM; results indicated the overall majority of sub-adult and adult red drum collected in estuaries had occupied the same region during their natal period."

( from http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/sta ... /red-drum/ )

...FWC made the decision to reduce the limit well before all survey data was collected , without any scientific data to verify anecdotal reports of reduced population (in the Panhandle area), and despite the science ("red drum are not long-distance travelers") that casts doubt that reducing the limit as far from the Panhandle area as Pasco County, FL will re-build a supposed diminishing population in the Panhandle area.

If IN FACT the red drum population has declined since 2013 (last data collected for the stock assessment dated 2015), then the problem is in the Panhandle area. Anecdotal information gathered thus far from the Big Bend area indicates no decline.

As of now there's no valid rationale for FWC to reduce the limit for the entire NW Zone.

Improved recruitment of reds to the Panhandle area won't occur until the decline of Apalachicola Bay (where the oyster industry has been obliterated) is mitigated.

[silverking]

2Salty,
Welcome to the Big Bend forum. It's interesting that you chose to join and weigh in on this issue. Do you work for the FWC or another fisheries agency by chance?

The graph I referred to was posted on myFWC.com but apparently has since been pulled and replaced by the news item of the executive action to lower the limit. I did not make up what I read.

If you had a history on this site, you would have seen many of us reporting declining catches of redfish and trout in the Big Bend area, which stretches east from Apalachicola to Steinhatchee. It's not just guides from Panama City and Apalach who are complaining about declining redfish numbers. I am on the water more than 150 days per year and I fish from St. Joe Bay to Steinhatchee and I have definitely noticed smaller schools, less fish and reduced catch rates. I am not alone. I have expressed my concern to the head of the Marine Fisheries Division and will continue to be involved in this process until the Commission discusses it again in June. I thought it was unwise for the commission to raise the bag limit to begin with (for reasons explained in an earlier post, if you bothered to read that) and testified several times to that effect before the rule was changed.

Am I a marine biologist? No. But from many years on the water as a professional guide and an avid redfish angler, I am concerned about the quality of the fishery. I would much rather sacrifice one fish and have a healthy population to enjoy when I go out than have the stocks collapse in the next couple years because of too much pressure and too much take. And it appears there are many others on here and elsewhere in the Northwest Management Region who feel the same way I do.

I have spent literally hundreds of hours at fisheries meetings over the last 25+ years trying help conserve the marine resources I love. I plan to be at the June FWC meeting. Maybe I'll see you there.

[cotton]

My unscientific survey for today. I fished by myself. 17 reds. Most were 19-21". The largest 23".

[2Salty]

2Salty,
Welcome to the Big Bend forum. It's interesting that you chose to join and weigh in on this issue. Do you work for the FWC or another fisheries agency by chance?

No I don't work for FWC or any other fisheries agency. I have been inshore saltwater fishing in the Big Bend area (from Keaton Beach to Ozello) for many years.

From the FWC:

"Although the Northwest management zone includes both the Panhandle and Big Bend, these regions are split in this presentation. For the purpose of this presentation, the Panhandle is defined by Escambia County through Ochlokonee Bay in Wakulla County and the Big Bend is Apalachee Bay through Pasco County. This delineation coincides with both differences in red drum habitat and angler feedback on the status of red drum."

"Many anglers and guides in the Panhandle, particularly those from Panama City in Bay County through Apalachicola in Franklin County, report seeing declines both in red drum populations and size of fish over the past 2-3 years. There are also anglers outside of this area in the Panhandle that report red drum in their area are doing well and there has not been a decline. Some anglers that have not seen a decline stated that they would still support the bag limit being reduced to one fish, despite the fishery doing well, while others are opposed to a reduction."

"In general, Big Bend anglers feel that their red drum fishery is strong. Most anglers that staff talked to from the Big Bend report both seeing and catching many red drum and that they are encountering large fish, both in the slot and above the slot. The online survey results from this area support what staff has heard at in-person events with most respondents stating that they are encountering more red drum of all sizes in recent years."

[ from Pensacola Fishing Forum “Redfish change 1 May” http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com...-1-may-692010/ ]

“If I knew these decisions were based on SCIENCE, I'd have no problems with them. The problem is that they are NOT based on SCIENCE, but on bull(edit). The redfish population is as healthy as its ever been in my lifetime. The two fish limit was due to SCIENCE saying all the regs worked to bring this species back from a very sad situation. I find it hard to believe that we've hurt the population in just the few years the limit has been raised to TWO fish per person.”

“Absolutely correct. Had a FWC presentation here in Pensacola weeks ago. It showed Redfish recruitment above projections. This is completely for and written by guides. 8 per boat limit!!! Next up Speckled Trout.”

“Dumb... the Panama city crowd pushed hard for this...”

“Is the red fish population down? I'm not totally against going back to one fish if it is based on good science and numbers. But if it is political, then I'm definitely against it.”

“I'm not happy about the bag limit being cut from 2 to 1, but I could live with it if there were some actually numbers and reasoning given with the new reg.”

“Over the years I've watched their population in our area grow yet now we get punished because some idiot doesn't know what they're talking about.”

“It's amazing what special interests can accomplish... this whole thing was spearheaded by 30 or so people... they were successful in changing the regulations for one-third of the state...”

“Redfish are EVERYWHERE now...”

“This all came about probably 8 months ago in Panama City... The charter guys over there were saying they were seeing a decrease in red fish populations..”

“Agree. Many for hire folks pushed for it.”

“Guides are out there taking those 4-8 person limits on a daily basis. Meanwhile, we rec guys are typically out for one day a week. That's a huge difference. If slot reds are becoming scarce, it ain't because of the rec guys keeping a limit of two fish.”

[2Salty]

"Many anglers and guides in the Panhandle, particularly those from Panama City in Bay County through Apalachicola in Franklin County, report seeing declines both in red drum populations and size of fish over the past 2-3 years."

Compare the above to:

"In general, Big Bend anglers feel that their red drum fishery is strong. Most anglers that staff talked to from the Big Bend report both seeing and catching many red drum and that they are encountering large fish, both in the slot and above the slot. The online survey results from this area support what staff has heard at in-person events with most respondents stating that they are encountering more red drum of all sizes in recent years."

Both "the Panhandle" and the "Big Bend" (as defined by FWC) are in the NW Zone (which is from the AL/FL line to Pasco County, FL). How can red drum populations in "the Panhandle" be declining at the same time in "the Big Bend" the "red drum fishery is strong"? Should FWC be relying solely on anecdotal information, from one segment of a management zone, when considering changes of limits? What differences exist between "the Panhandle" and "the Big Bend"?

What is happening in "the Panhandle"? Overfishing? Other? A combination of overfishing and other?

Anecdotal reports to FWC of a reduced red drum population have come particularly from Panama City in Bay County through Apalachicola in Franklin County. This area includes Apalachicola Bay. Apalachicola Bay, as evidenced by the implosion of the oyster industry, has become an environmental catastrophe (due to reduced freshwater water influx from rivers thanks to the AL/GA/FL "water wars").

It's not illogical or unreasonable to suggest or think that, if in fact there is a reduced red drum population in "the Panhandle", then the compromised condition of Apalachicola Bay may well be a contributing factor. Anyone who would think "the oysters are dying off in Apalachicola Bay but nothing else is impacted" lacks even the most fundamental understanding of an ecosystem.

Meanwhile, in "the Big Bend", the "red drum fishery is strong".

Given the deterioration of Apalachicola Bay, there's no logic or reason to think reducing the limit on reds in "the Big Bend" will help the perceived reduced red drum population in "the Panhandle".

[silverking]

And if you read several of the posts in the two threads on this forum which is the Big Bend region you see folks who are very concerned about redfish and trout numbers in Wakulla, Jefferson and Taylor coastal waters.

Are environmental factors at play? Of course. So is the increasing inshore pressure from anglers who are switching over from offshore because of the crazy federal regs. The bay boat market is one of the hottest segments in the boat-building industry.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'll continue to express mine and relate my personal experiences to the Commission. I'm done here.

[2Salty]

...The bay boat market is one of the hottest segments in the boat-building industry...

If FWC and the State of Florida were genuinely and truly intent on preserving and protecting its fisheries' populations, maybe it's time for FWC to stop selling a fishing license to anyone/everyone who can pay for it.

Rather than reduce limits, maybe it's time for a different approach.

Maybe FWC should have a lottery system for awarding Florida residents a fishing license.

Maybe FWC should (dramatically) increase the cost of non-resident fishing licenses (so that Florida residents won't have as much competition and pressure from non-residents for productive, successful fishing in Florida waters).

As the saying goes, "there's more than 1 way to clean a fish".

[grasshopper]

. I'm done here.[/quote]


Hope that's a promise.

[rockyg]

. I'm done here.

Hope that's a promise.[/quote]

Having trouble operating the internet there hopper. That quote function is a toughie.

Luckily this Forum has you to fill in for SK's decades of actual experience.

[onefishtwofish]

Thanks Silverking for the efforts and time you have spent to help all Florida Gulf fishing. I appreciate what you do and thank you.