The nice Fed Ex man just delivered my two new Capricorn "A" model reels.
There are a couple of minor cosmetic differences. In addition; the old model had four ball bearings while the new ones have five (maybe the same as the Cabela's reel?). According to the box, three of the five bearings are "corrosion resistant", makes you wonder why they didn't make all five corrosion resistant. The spare spools that came with the new ones are the same as the "main" spool. The old style came with a cheaper spare.
We shall see.
Daiwa Capricorn- Do over
Moderators: bman, Chalk, Tom Keels
Daiwa Capricorn- Do over
Last edited by Ken K on October 5th, 2003, 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ken
At least Daiwa are trying to compensate you for your problems and it looks as though you have far better reels, than originally.
The "reel" question is, why did you have to have the problem in the first place.
Still, its nice to hear you have new balls , Ken.
Especially as they are "corrosion resistant".
The "reel" question is, why did you have to have the problem in the first place.
Still, its nice to hear you have new balls , Ken.
Especially as they are "corrosion resistant".
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lightchop
Ken,
What size Capricorns are the new ones?
What distinguishes the old ones from the new ones?
Cran's going to ride you hard about the Daiwas because he's been abducted by aliens in a UFO, who implanted a Shimano chip at the base of his skull, before they released him years ago!
As I've mentioned several times before, I go back and forth between Daiwa and Shimano, because they compete hard and leap-frog each other on reel technology. Overall, Daiwa is ahead of Shimano, especially on, so called, salt-water reels.
How do I explain the Capricorn debacle? They both sub-contract extensively, and the quality control on the Capricorn, probably just got away from them. They aren't all that skilled at handling screw-ups, because they haven't had very many. This could have happened to Shimano and may just be building up momentum with the Stradic that I've heard some rumblings about their new design (noise and resistance when cranking, kinda like your problem with the Capricorns). I haven't had this problem, yet, with my Stradic 4000FH, but I did do a marine grease-up on everyplace that salt-water could get in it, as I do, right out of the box, on every spinner I get! No one seems to be interested in this technique, so I say to them, grind away, dudes!
I hope all will go well with the new ones. Keep us posted. Thanks!
What size Capricorns are the new ones?
What distinguishes the old ones from the new ones?
Cran's going to ride you hard about the Daiwas because he's been abducted by aliens in a UFO, who implanted a Shimano chip at the base of his skull, before they released him years ago!
As I've mentioned several times before, I go back and forth between Daiwa and Shimano, because they compete hard and leap-frog each other on reel technology. Overall, Daiwa is ahead of Shimano, especially on, so called, salt-water reels.
How do I explain the Capricorn debacle? They both sub-contract extensively, and the quality control on the Capricorn, probably just got away from them. They aren't all that skilled at handling screw-ups, because they haven't had very many. This could have happened to Shimano and may just be building up momentum with the Stradic that I've heard some rumblings about their new design (noise and resistance when cranking, kinda like your problem with the Capricorns). I haven't had this problem, yet, with my Stradic 4000FH, but I did do a marine grease-up on everyplace that salt-water could get in it, as I do, right out of the box, on every spinner I get! No one seems to be interested in this technique, so I say to them, grind away, dudes!
I hope all will go well with the new ones. Keep us posted. Thanks!
lightchop, they both "subcontract extensively", do you have any proof on this ?
Shimano deny that any of their reel components are sub contracted.
Nobody would be daft enough to admit to making for Daiwa.
There can be no fair comparison between Daiwa and Shimano reels.
Shimano are 1st grade and Daiwa are about 3rd grade.
How many people have Daiwa reels over 20 years old that are used regularly ?
Not many, is my guess.
Shimano deny that any of their reel components are sub contracted.
Nobody would be daft enough to admit to making for Daiwa.
There can be no fair comparison between Daiwa and Shimano reels.
Shimano are 1st grade and Daiwa are about 3rd grade.
How many people have Daiwa reels over 20 years old that are used regularly ?
Not many, is my guess.
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lightchop
Cran,
I'm really pizzed-off with this site, cutting me off after I write a response, hit, submit and it drops my post and enters a log-on dialog box.
Anyway I'll try it again. It's done this to me several times before, so I'll save this before I hit, Submit!
I've Googled Shimano and was astonished with all the U.K. Shimano sites given. Are you getting a, "closed market" to Daiwa?
I have at least 3 Daiwas that are about 30 years old, and I use them occasionally and they work and look fine.
I know from personal experience working on space rockets and PC's, and from years experience with consumer goods of all kinds, that most if not all the manufacturers contract-out parts that only specialists companies can keep-up with the technology concerning -- in this case, bearings for reels, solid bushings, ball-bearings, roller-bearings and needle-bearings.
You could be right about Shimano producing all the components for their reels, but I doubt it. I don't have any proof, because that kind of info is privileged and I suspect that your proof might be a claim made by Shimano or else a cleverly worded promotion statement. If you got proof, let me know -- I have been wrong before!
How much bigger is the U.S. market than the U.K.'s? Daiwa is certainly not 3rd grade here, nor is Shimano 1st grade. Actually, the biggest producer of spinning reels in the world is Okuma, because they have the OEM market, which produces reels of all kinds for other labels who don't manufacture anything, like Sears, and that only contracts for products to be made under some of their brand names. Okuma is only recently producing fishing gear under their own name, and for some purists, it's all junk, but in California and Florida they are being accepted for good cost-benefit gear. I am not a brand-name loyalist and I realize that when companies are competing heavily to make a profit, lots of the stuff they make will be junk, because most people want to fish only a few days or weeks on a vacation and they don't want to pay for a Rolls Royce reel.
Speaking of Rolls Royce -- it's, "made" by BMW (still use world-class English interior furnishings like, leather, real wood).
And Jaguar is, "made" by Ford. My Explorer has the same basic engine as several Jags that prowl the streets over here.
Diawa pioneered the spin-buster stuff while Shimano was sitting on their hands. After about 3 years, Shimano tried to compete in this area, but Daiwa had patents for some of their designs, like line swivel, long spool with slow wind and larger diameter at front of spool and some other features like anti-vibration, etc. Some few of these patented features were cleverly skirted by Shimano, but not all.
You, know, Cran, I hope you win this one, because it would save me from checking-out both Daiwa and Shimano to see who has the latest technology -- we Yanks may be just too dumb to know there's much difference in quality between the two, at least the stuff each, markets over here. Could be we're so uninformed that both these brands only send their rejects, defects (sorry, Ken) and inferior models to us, that we don't ever see the good stuff!
What say you, mate?
I'm really pizzed-off with this site, cutting me off after I write a response, hit, submit and it drops my post and enters a log-on dialog box.
Anyway I'll try it again. It's done this to me several times before, so I'll save this before I hit, Submit!
I've Googled Shimano and was astonished with all the U.K. Shimano sites given. Are you getting a, "closed market" to Daiwa?
I have at least 3 Daiwas that are about 30 years old, and I use them occasionally and they work and look fine.
I know from personal experience working on space rockets and PC's, and from years experience with consumer goods of all kinds, that most if not all the manufacturers contract-out parts that only specialists companies can keep-up with the technology concerning -- in this case, bearings for reels, solid bushings, ball-bearings, roller-bearings and needle-bearings.
You could be right about Shimano producing all the components for their reels, but I doubt it. I don't have any proof, because that kind of info is privileged and I suspect that your proof might be a claim made by Shimano or else a cleverly worded promotion statement. If you got proof, let me know -- I have been wrong before!
How much bigger is the U.S. market than the U.K.'s? Daiwa is certainly not 3rd grade here, nor is Shimano 1st grade. Actually, the biggest producer of spinning reels in the world is Okuma, because they have the OEM market, which produces reels of all kinds for other labels who don't manufacture anything, like Sears, and that only contracts for products to be made under some of their brand names. Okuma is only recently producing fishing gear under their own name, and for some purists, it's all junk, but in California and Florida they are being accepted for good cost-benefit gear. I am not a brand-name loyalist and I realize that when companies are competing heavily to make a profit, lots of the stuff they make will be junk, because most people want to fish only a few days or weeks on a vacation and they don't want to pay for a Rolls Royce reel.
Speaking of Rolls Royce -- it's, "made" by BMW (still use world-class English interior furnishings like, leather, real wood).
And Jaguar is, "made" by Ford. My Explorer has the same basic engine as several Jags that prowl the streets over here.
Diawa pioneered the spin-buster stuff while Shimano was sitting on their hands. After about 3 years, Shimano tried to compete in this area, but Daiwa had patents for some of their designs, like line swivel, long spool with slow wind and larger diameter at front of spool and some other features like anti-vibration, etc. Some few of these patented features were cleverly skirted by Shimano, but not all.
You, know, Cran, I hope you win this one, because it would save me from checking-out both Daiwa and Shimano to see who has the latest technology -- we Yanks may be just too dumb to know there's much difference in quality between the two, at least the stuff each, markets over here. Could be we're so uninformed that both these brands only send their rejects, defects (sorry, Ken) and inferior models to us, that we don't ever see the good stuff!
What say you, mate?
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lightchop
Ken,
Thanks for the reply.
The reason I asked about distinguishing marks, is that I'll probably buy a Capricorn and one of the latest Okuma spinners this Spring.
Not because I need another 2 reels, but that fishing tackle is both a hobby and another way I enjoy fishing. My 2003 Stradic is a 4000FH I use for trout, redfish, blues and Spanish Mackerel and is pretty much, "big" for the flats, but it's well balanced with the G. Loomis 7.5' Greenwater I have it on. I'll probably go with 3000 or 3500 (if available) for the Capricorn and Okuma, this Spring.
Thanks for the reply.
The reason I asked about distinguishing marks, is that I'll probably buy a Capricorn and one of the latest Okuma spinners this Spring.
Not because I need another 2 reels, but that fishing tackle is both a hobby and another way I enjoy fishing. My 2003 Stradic is a 4000FH I use for trout, redfish, blues and Spanish Mackerel and is pretty much, "big" for the flats, but it's well balanced with the G. Loomis 7.5' Greenwater I have it on. I'll probably go with 3000 or 3500 (if available) for the Capricorn and Okuma, this Spring.
My comment that Shimano don,t contract out parts for their reels, was based on a statement they issued when rumours circulated, that Okuma were making for Shimano.
Shimano stated that no part of their reels was made by any company, other than Shimano.
It appears that we have some Shimano models, that are not sold extensively in the US.
But then you have some models, we don,t have.
Or perhaps they are just called different names.
Daiwa has very little penetration in the UK and are associated with rods, as much as reels.
They are priced at the "cheap" end of the market.
We all clearly buy what we are confident with.
I have had extreme value for money from my Shimano spinning reels and my Abu baitcasters.
Thats what I base my comments on, personal experience.
If you have a different personal experience, that will affect your opinion.
When Rolls Royce and Jaguar were made by their independant companies, they were very high quality cars.
Now, they are no different from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and others in that luxury car grouping.
Shimano stated that no part of their reels was made by any company, other than Shimano.
It appears that we have some Shimano models, that are not sold extensively in the US.
But then you have some models, we don,t have.
Or perhaps they are just called different names.
Daiwa has very little penetration in the UK and are associated with rods, as much as reels.
They are priced at the "cheap" end of the market.
We all clearly buy what we are confident with.
I have had extreme value for money from my Shimano spinning reels and my Abu baitcasters.
Thats what I base my comments on, personal experience.
If you have a different personal experience, that will affect your opinion.
When Rolls Royce and Jaguar were made by their independant companies, they were very high quality cars.
Now, they are no different from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and others in that luxury car grouping.
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lightchop
Cran,
Thanks for the reply and for not getting your drawers in a wad about my rather Type A approach. It may seem ingenuine for me to say that I don’t really like to argue much of anything anymore. And it’s only because I don’t have all that good of an insight into how to discuss differences of opinion among men, when I’ve spent so much of my life, almost fighting-it-out with scientists, engineers and technicians.
I really want to share my perspective on fishing stuff with you and I seem to detect that you do to.
I think of it as, expanding my horizons, and I don’t want to be rude, but I realize, from force of habit, I often become rude to others without meaning to do so. I’ve also got some bad habits from arguing with my two oldest sons, who hammer me hard with their ideas in order to win an argument. They don’t give me any advantage and they go at me ruthlessly at times, but we eventually give it a break and laugh it off.
What I’m beginning to draw from our discussions, is that we may have different experiences due to different product lines found here and the U.K. It just seems to me that a successful global company would tailor their products differently in different markets. You statement about a rumor that Okuma was supplying parts for some Shimano reels, opened a door that had been slightly opened to me before. One of the problems that plague both of us is that we have no empirical proof, one way or the other, and obviously won’t ever. I would not find it unreasonable that Shimano would contract with Okuma to supply parts for Shimano. I, also, would believe that if the rumor were true, especially in the U.K., that Shimano would make a staunch denial of the rumor and take steps to hide the facts, if there were no quality problems and the deal between Okuma and Shimano were mutually profitable. Obviously Shimano wouldn’t contract with Okuma if the Okuma parts were not up to their standards. If a Shimano reel with Okuma bearings or gears would perform smoothly and prove highly durable, would you ever know they were Okuma parts, or would you ever care? See my point?
I’ve had lots of experience with quality control and source management and like most things involving human beings, there is no perfection, here either. It’s like any team effort – with herculean effort, things can go wrong, and with little or no effort, things can go right. Quality teams and management teams do have their ups and downs – some are based on discipline and talent, others less so. Consumers are more tolerant with occasional problems, if the manufacturer corrects the problems without much delay and the problems don’t recur.
Oh, I used the term, “spin-busterâ€
Thanks for the reply and for not getting your drawers in a wad about my rather Type A approach. It may seem ingenuine for me to say that I don’t really like to argue much of anything anymore. And it’s only because I don’t have all that good of an insight into how to discuss differences of opinion among men, when I’ve spent so much of my life, almost fighting-it-out with scientists, engineers and technicians.
I really want to share my perspective on fishing stuff with you and I seem to detect that you do to.
I think of it as, expanding my horizons, and I don’t want to be rude, but I realize, from force of habit, I often become rude to others without meaning to do so. I’ve also got some bad habits from arguing with my two oldest sons, who hammer me hard with their ideas in order to win an argument. They don’t give me any advantage and they go at me ruthlessly at times, but we eventually give it a break and laugh it off.
What I’m beginning to draw from our discussions, is that we may have different experiences due to different product lines found here and the U.K. It just seems to me that a successful global company would tailor their products differently in different markets. You statement about a rumor that Okuma was supplying parts for some Shimano reels, opened a door that had been slightly opened to me before. One of the problems that plague both of us is that we have no empirical proof, one way or the other, and obviously won’t ever. I would not find it unreasonable that Shimano would contract with Okuma to supply parts for Shimano. I, also, would believe that if the rumor were true, especially in the U.K., that Shimano would make a staunch denial of the rumor and take steps to hide the facts, if there were no quality problems and the deal between Okuma and Shimano were mutually profitable. Obviously Shimano wouldn’t contract with Okuma if the Okuma parts were not up to their standards. If a Shimano reel with Okuma bearings or gears would perform smoothly and prove highly durable, would you ever know they were Okuma parts, or would you ever care? See my point?
I’ve had lots of experience with quality control and source management and like most things involving human beings, there is no perfection, here either. It’s like any team effort – with herculean effort, things can go wrong, and with little or no effort, things can go right. Quality teams and management teams do have their ups and downs – some are based on discipline and talent, others less so. Consumers are more tolerant with occasional problems, if the manufacturer corrects the problems without much delay and the problems don’t recur.
Oh, I used the term, “spin-busterâ€
I think people should recognise, that on some differences they should, "agree to disagree".
It doesn,t prevent you prosecuting your case, but thats all you can do.
Discussion becomes argument, when you try to change peoples minds.
I don,t believe Okuma make for Shimano for two reasons.
Firstly, Shimano said so and they wouldn,t dare be caught in a lie.
Secondly, someone ,somewhere would "let the cat out of the bag".
There are lots of difference between our fishing tackle, mainly due to the fact we have different styles of fishing.
One thing I have never understood, is why there are so many solid glass and fibre glass boat rods in use there.
All of my fishing rods are carbon fibre and that includes 15lb, 20lb, 30lb and 50 lb class boat rods (not a roller guide on any of them ).
Still its differences that make life interesting.
It doesn,t prevent you prosecuting your case, but thats all you can do.
Discussion becomes argument, when you try to change peoples minds.
I don,t believe Okuma make for Shimano for two reasons.
Firstly, Shimano said so and they wouldn,t dare be caught in a lie.
Secondly, someone ,somewhere would "let the cat out of the bag".
There are lots of difference between our fishing tackle, mainly due to the fact we have different styles of fishing.
One thing I have never understood, is why there are so many solid glass and fibre glass boat rods in use there.
All of my fishing rods are carbon fibre and that includes 15lb, 20lb, 30lb and 50 lb class boat rods (not a roller guide on any of them
).Still its differences that make life interesting.
Gentlemen, thanks for the reasoned "debate". I have the Cableas 2500 version. I did a lot of research and chose it over the Stradic FH. I've used it a lot this year and it's holding up well. I'm not brand loyal, I just want good stuff & Van Stal is out of my league. Ken, I'm really interested in the "A" model. Do you have a schematic & is the extra bearing in the handle? You might compare the weights for a clue.
Thanks for keeping me current with the story.
Thanks for keeping me current with the story.
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lightchop
Littoral, the new "A" model has two additional parts. One is a tiny washer for the screw that holds the side plate on. The other is the fifth bearing, it goes in the right side of the reel housing and the shaft for the drive gear fits this bearing.
Bearing 1: line roller on the bail
Bearings 2,3: oscillating shaft
Bearings 4,5: drive gear
Bearing 1: line roller on the bail
Bearings 2,3: oscillating shaft
Bearings 4,5: drive gear
Ken
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lightchop
Ken,
Excuse my ignorance on spinning reel terminology, but in reading again your listing of the 5 bearings on the new (A) Capricorn, I'm not so sure I understand the placement of the added bearing which you say fits on the shaft for the drive gear. I looked at a schematic for a Daiwa Emblem-Z, 1500iA, I have and (realize it's a different reel) it looks like there is no shaft separately mentioned, other than the handle assembly which has a shaft which fits through the drive gear. There is no bearing on the right side of the drive gear, but it looks like a bushing is there at the point where the right side of the drive gear contacts the body assembly. I looked at the schematic for my Stradic and it lists a separate bushing for the right side of the drive gear.
So, as I understand it, the new (A) Capricorn has 2 ball bearings, one on either side of the drive gear, whereas the old 2003 Capricorn you sent back to Daiwa, had only one ball bearing on the left side of the drive gear.
I'm a little rusty on the nomenclature for spinning reels which I use exclusively for salt water, mostly because I've never had any problem with either a Daiwa or a Shimano in the last 20+ years after I started applying marine anticorrosion grease to them all, straight out of the box.
I mentioned my greasing technique to Cran and he replied that he didn't like to use grease, because he thought it attracted dust and other foreign materials. I've never had that problem because I keep my fishing tackle in the house (family members accuse me of sleeping with it) and dust is only cosmetic for me and I don't ever lay my rod/reels down in grass, dirt or sand and my boats are fairly clean and I try to keep them in rod holders.
The Capricorn now looks like it has a one bearing advantage on the Stradic, but like you said, you'll see! My experience is that ball bearings are usually better (smoother turning) than bushings and that I believe, most, if not all, reel bearings are made by either one, or only a few, specialty companies that likely supply bearings (ball, roller, or needle) to likely, all the reel companies. The days are long gone when a reel company does it all, and even way back when I was a kid and fished for bass with a Pflueger Summit and a Shakespear President, certain parts were contracted-out. I've still got the Pflueger and it works just fine. Pflueger and Shakespear, today, are just marketing names for fishing gear, likely made by Okuma or some smaller OEM company.
Excuse my ignorance on spinning reel terminology, but in reading again your listing of the 5 bearings on the new (A) Capricorn, I'm not so sure I understand the placement of the added bearing which you say fits on the shaft for the drive gear. I looked at a schematic for a Daiwa Emblem-Z, 1500iA, I have and (realize it's a different reel) it looks like there is no shaft separately mentioned, other than the handle assembly which has a shaft which fits through the drive gear. There is no bearing on the right side of the drive gear, but it looks like a bushing is there at the point where the right side of the drive gear contacts the body assembly. I looked at the schematic for my Stradic and it lists a separate bushing for the right side of the drive gear.
So, as I understand it, the new (A) Capricorn has 2 ball bearings, one on either side of the drive gear, whereas the old 2003 Capricorn you sent back to Daiwa, had only one ball bearing on the left side of the drive gear.
I'm a little rusty on the nomenclature for spinning reels which I use exclusively for salt water, mostly because I've never had any problem with either a Daiwa or a Shimano in the last 20+ years after I started applying marine anticorrosion grease to them all, straight out of the box.
I mentioned my greasing technique to Cran and he replied that he didn't like to use grease, because he thought it attracted dust and other foreign materials. I've never had that problem because I keep my fishing tackle in the house (family members accuse me of sleeping with it) and dust is only cosmetic for me and I don't ever lay my rod/reels down in grass, dirt or sand and my boats are fairly clean and I try to keep them in rod holders.
The Capricorn now looks like it has a one bearing advantage on the Stradic, but like you said, you'll see! My experience is that ball bearings are usually better (smoother turning) than bushings and that I believe, most, if not all, reel bearings are made by either one, or only a few, specialty companies that likely supply bearings (ball, roller, or needle) to likely, all the reel companies. The days are long gone when a reel company does it all, and even way back when I was a kid and fished for bass with a Pflueger Summit and a Shakespear President, certain parts were contracted-out. I've still got the Pflueger and it works just fine. Pflueger and Shakespear, today, are just marketing names for fishing gear, likely made by Okuma or some smaller OEM company.
The shaft for the drive gear is an integral piece of the gear. You are correct in your understanding of the bearing placement.
I don't doubt that a company the size of Shimano could keep a ball bearing factory or a foundry in operation. I would not be surprised or think less of them if they contracted that type work out though.
I don't doubt that a company the size of Shimano could keep a ball bearing factory or a foundry in operation. I would not be surprised or think less of them if they contracted that type work out though.
Ken