Like Oysters, Shrimp or Fish?

[Barhopr]

Hey Rhtfish, just think, if Lake Seminole was not here, we wouldn't have "all" of these endangered muscles to protect, or the various other species here. I still say water quality is a larger issue than water volume.

[bman]

Mills has a great idea- just increase the flow from Seminole....

I'm kidding but it makes the point that all of this is Crazy complex.
Water shortage will become an increasing problem as our population grows.
We see now that it can effect an area that is not heavily populated- just down stream from a more densely populated area.

There are similar issues down in south Florida- there has been talk of pumping our freshwater down there.
They have tried Desalinization of sea water but it is expensive and the outflow increases the salt concentrations where ever it goes.

Bottom line for me- this all stinks.
And unfortunately I'm not smart enough to figure out the answer.

Barry

[wevans]

Atlanta looking to tighten water restrictions


The city of Atlanta wants to tighten their water restrictions, but now has to jump through some hoops.

On May 14, Gov. Perdue signed House Bill 1281, which made it illegal for any local government to override the state’s water restrictions without permission. The Environmental Protection Division is reviewing the request, along with a request to reduce restrictions in Coweta County.

To clear things up, here are the current restrictions for most of north Georgia:

No sprinklers. Use a hand-held garden hose with an automatic shut-off only. Only one hose at a time.
Water three days a week: Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays for houses with odd-numbered addresses and Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays for houses with even-numbered addresses.
Water between midnight and 10 a.m.
Water for 25 minutes only.
More liberal rules for new landscaping allow sprinklers for ten weeks after planting new grass, shrubs, trees and flowers, on the three-day schedule and limited hours.
To use the more lenient rules, homeowners must be certified through an on-line course given by the Georgia Urban Agriculture Council at http://www.urbanagcouncil.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Certification is also available from each county’s extension agent.

[RHTFISH]

Atlanta looking to tighten water restrictions


The city of Atlanta wants to tighten their water restrictions, but now has to jump through some hoops.

On May 14, Gov. Perdue signed House Bill 1281, which made it illegal for any local government to override the state’s water restrictions without permission. The Environmental Protection Division is reviewing the request, along with a request to reduce restrictions in Coweta County.

To clear things up, here are the current restrictions for most of north Georgia:

No sprinklers. Use a hand-held garden hose with an automatic shut-off only. Only one hose at a time.
Water three days a week: Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays for houses with odd-numbered addresses and Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays for houses with even-numbered addresses.
Water between midnight and 10 a.m.
Water for 25 minutes only.
More liberal rules for new landscaping allow sprinklers for ten weeks after planting new grass, shrubs, trees and flowers, on the three-day schedule and limited hours.
To use the more lenient rules, homeowners must be certified through an on-line course given by the Georgia Urban Agriculture Council at http://www.urbanagcouncil.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Certification is also available from each county’s extension agent.

[BAD BEHAVIOR]

If you take the city of Atlanta out of the equation, doesnt that pretty much void this debate??? Have Atlanta dig their own wells and make the city and Fulton county be self sufficient as far as their water goes. Most small towns have their own water so why cant Atlanta. I realize its much more complex in a city with 2 million or however many people are in Atlanta, but why cant they draw their water from the ground like everyone else. If Atlanta were divided into regions and regional wells were dug at Atlanta's burden to bear the cost, I think not only would it solve the water isssue but Atlanta probably wouldnt be outgrowing itself as it is because their tax rates would be so high from having to pay for the wells!! Ive thought about this for a while and albeit Atlanta may not be able to draw all their water from the ground without hinderig aquifer levels in the northern part of the state, they could certainly subsidize their water usages with the wells in extreme drought conitions if not all the time. Just my .02 and then some. Somebody please point out where Im wrong, if I am, who has a more educated perspective on this than I do.

[ak man]

Last time I weighed in on this subject on a similar thread, mine was the last post.....no one responded. So, please someone argue with me. I don't defend ATL, it's pretty tough to do so. But..... the people of ATL have been dealing with this for quite a while and it has had a LARGE impact on our lives. I haven't washed my truck since January. I can't, I'll get fined 150 dollars if I do. People can't water their lawns. The passage that Wevans quoted is something that just came about 2 weeks ago, prior to that you could not do it at all. The water consumption in ATL is down so 6-7 % since last summer. That is a dramatic number, so dramatic in fact that the state is raising water prices to homes because consumption has dropped so much. So now we pay more for less water. These lifestyle changes aren't impossible to deal with, I'm a confident dude, I don't care if my truck is shiny, and I don't own a house, so I don't have a lawn. But.....I spend significant time in S GA and they aren't doing a damn thing to reduce water consumption. I was there this weekend and every house I saw had their sprinkler system on. Car washes going like crazy, golf courses lush and green. ATL and it's population are a cause of some problems, but stopping the rain is not something we can do. And like BH said, without Lanier, their wouldn't have been any water to be released downstream all last summer, the rain surely wasn't filling the rivers up. At least in ATL we have/are making lifestyle changes to try and help out. The source of this problem is not ATL, it's a long term weather pattern, lacking in rain, that is the source of the problem.

[Barhopr]

Didn't say if lanier hadn't let water thru that no water would have flowed thru to gulf. I said if the system of dams as a whole were not in place it it very likely that no water would have flowed thru. Most any hydrologist that are familiar with the system will tell you that very little of the lanier water EVER makes it thru. Being caught in the middle of ATL at the coast, I can side with either side on many of the issues. I could not care less if someones grass is dead or their car is dirty in N. Ga. they should be on restrictions, they are the ones raising cane about lack of water( which they get solely from a reservoir). We in South Georgia ( Bainbridge specifically) get absolutely none of our community water from the rivers in the area. Atlanta's infrastructure is so outdated that more water leaks out of some of the 70-100 year old underground pipes than a lot of small south Georgia towns use. I remember several years ago that the EPA was fining the city of ATL some ungodly amount of money everyday because of just that issue and other environmental issues. The City decided that it was more cost effective to pay the fines than to fix the problems with the city nearly century old pipelines. Just saying, Atl is growing faster than the resources available to it can sustain. As for Fla. they want the cake and be able to eat it as well. No one had an issue with the dam at Seminole when people were being killed, livestock drowned, and Apalach flooding before the dam was put in.

[Littoral]

Perhaps this can be considered a "cop out" but I'd like to commend all who have expressed their feelings on this issue up to this point. All points have been expressed well and show a lot of thought, and concern for the complete picture. I can't say I really disagree with any of the positions taken. They're all good points! I sure do appreciate this forum sometimes!

[boggob]

Atlanta does not have an aquifer like here and in South Ga. It also does not matter whether the water comes from the ground. Groundwater affects surface water. Look at Lake Jackson. The Flint River is primarily a spring-fed river. Pump all the water out of groundwater wells and you reduce flow to the Flint. All of this is a result of poor growth management and not thinking for the long-term. Of course, that could be said for most of the problems facing this nation.

The problem is that the dams were authorized and built for: 1. Navigation and 2. Hydropower. Navigation was a boon-doggle all along and the Corps is notorious for environmentally-degredading boon-doggles all over the country. The projected channel depths were never realized even with all of the dredging and channel-straightening activities, which in an of itself causes serious issues.

Water supply was merely and incidental benefit. Atlanta and the Army Corps have known that water supply was finite and and growth imminent since the 1970s and yet did nothing. Additionally, Georgia has been constructing state dams all along the tributaries, drawing from them and diminishing flow to the river. Atlanta's water consumption is nothing compared to Agriculture. Add it all up and you wind up with a dead bay.

Enough of that...

Apalachicola Bay and River is recognized as an international biosphere due to its richness in diversity and uniqueness. It is also one of the last pristine estuaries.

All of this talk about passing stuff down to our children and future generations is just that, talk.

For some info:
http://www.apalachicolariverkeeper.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nerrs.noaa.gov/Apalachicola/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/coastal/site ... a/info.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sam.usace.army.mil/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sam.usace.army.mil/hottopics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jumptrout51]

I can not believe Sir Reel agreed with the statements made.
What is this world coming to?

[Redbelly]

DANG! We need lotsa rain.......

[BAD BEHAVIOR]

Atlanta does not have an aquifer like here and in South Ga. It also does not matter whether the water comes from the ground. Groundwater affects surface water. Look at Lake Jackson. The Flint River is primarily a spring-fed river. Pump all the water out of groundwater wells and you reduce flow to the Flint. All of this is a result of poor growth management and not thinking for the long-term. Of course, that could be said for most of the problems facing this nation.

The problem is that the dams were authorized and built for: 1. Navigation and 2. Hydropower. Navigation was a boon-doggle all along and the Corps is notorious for environmentally-degredading boon-doggles all over the country. The projected channel depths were never realized even with all of the dredging and channel-straightening activities, which in an of itself causes serious issues.

Water supply was merely and incidental benefit. Atlanta and the Army Corps have known that water supply was finite and and growth imminent since the 1970s and yet did nothing. Additionally, Georgia has been constructing state dams all along the tributaries, drawing from them and diminishing flow to the river. Atlanta's water consumption is nothing compared to Agriculture. Add it all up and you wind up with a dead bay.

Enough of that...

Apalachicola Bay and River is recognized as an international biosphere due to its richness in diversity and uniqueness. It is also one of the last pristine estuaries.

All of this talk about passing stuff down to our children and future generations is just that, talk.

For some info:
http://www.apalachicolariverkeeper.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nerrs.noaa.gov/Apalachicola/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/coastal/site ... a/info.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sam.usace.army.mil/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sam.usace.army.mil/hottopics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boggob, thanks for the clarification. I didnt think that the aquifers under north Georgia was quite as diverse as the ones we are fortunate to have here. I totally agree AG businesses pull way more water from the aquifer but doesnt approximately 70% of that water go back into the earth? That versus the consumption and pollution of major cities to our water sources, I ll have to side with the farmers. What you said has merit, Im just pondering the difference.

[MudDucker]

BB, there is not sufficient sub-surface water to provide for Atlanta. If there was, they would have done it long ago.

I own property at the Cape and I love this estuary. However, it is my understanding is that the water restrictions still allow out as much water as is coming in during low water periods...in other words, no less than natural flow, but cuts back during higher flows to rebuild the reservoir stock. Last year, the corp admitted that it had faulty measurements and had released way too much water.

I really don't see where Florida has a beef as long as during the low flow periods the flow is maintained at the same rate as the natural flow, even if there is no flow. The river has gone dry in past history before the dams.

Also, had Georgia built the dams on the rivers which begin in Georgia, we would not be having this discussion. There is no federal protection for rivers dammed that were either not navigable or above the point where they are navigable. Lake Lanier is above any navigable point.

[bman]

Thought this was an interesting wrinkle in our conversation- This is not just a FL/GA/AL issue its a world wide issue and the $ speak for themselves.
Water crisis to be biggest world risk By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Lo
A catastrophic water shortage could prove an even bigger threat to mankind this century than soaring food prices and the relentless exhaustion of energy reserves, according to a panel of global experts at the Goldman Sachs "Top Five Risks" conference.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j ... ter105.xml

[Barhopr]

Bmans got it right. Remember that most of the old Cowboy movies were about folks fighting over water rights. It's been less than 150 years that folks in this country were killing each other over water rights for cattle and farm land.