Now you are FORCED to take a survey to get a license

[EddieJoe]

I'm with Jhults on this one.... I can't imagine how getting a FREE permit and taking 1 minute out of your time to take a survey can be construed as an "invasion" or "hassle" of any kind. With the past 10 years of controversy in reef fish management I am glad to see a survey in which fisheries managers and researchers will be able to more accurately determine fishing effort across the state. This survey in my opinion was an approach to gain knowledge on just how many fisherman are targeting reef fish per year. Since commercial fisherman are required to report their catches, fisheries researchers have a much better understanding of effort and catch from the commercial sector. This survey will help researchers focus on effort and catch within the recreational sector, therefore being able to more accurately determine how long the season should be and how many fish can be kept per person. Please, don't look at this survey as a hindrance or the government pushing you to participate, look at it as a way in which YOU as a sportsman, fisherman or conservationist can help your state better manage the natural resource which is our fisheries.

Trevor, I appreciate your support for good fisheries management, but as a new guy in the field (I read your 2014 graduation date, mine was 40 years ago), you have a lot to learn. Fisheries management is about managing people and politics more than anything else, and the current issue is no different. I've been inside the process at the top back in the day, and not much is as it seems, as the real action is below the surface. Getting good data is important, but the FWC has made a decision to get it in a certain way, then justifies the effort (and the way they are doing it) as necessary because anglers "demanded it", not because they should have decided to do it on their own. Deflecting the responsibility to the angling public for a Commission decision creating a special use permit is pretty lame, and then deciding to require permits from exempt sectors for convenience is doubling down.

In a cynical move, the advertised "Gulf Reef Fish Permit" was changed to a "registration" during final rule adoption, thus superficially avoiding the dreaded "permit" title, which changed nothing but the title. It's hard not to see this as gamesmanship. I have always hated justifying actions by "The end justifies the means".

EJ

[Sun Daze]

Or maybe they are well educated and understand what the survey is about. Data, not taking away your rights

A better explanation would be they are just naive........

[EddieJoe]

Or maybe they are well educated and understand what the survey is about. Data, not taking away your rights

A better explanation would be they are just naive........

Yes, but in my own irritation about this (and kind of getting on my high horse )I don't want to suggest he isn't right about the concept. The information is important, and should be gathered. But how you do it and how it is finessed is critical for fairness and acceptance. If people just ignore the permit requirement then no data will be gathered and no good will be accomplished.

Fishing is a privilege, not a right, and I do appreciate how hard it is to handle the regulatory challenge from the agency side. As I have commented before, I believe the FWC and predecessor agencies have done a good job at managing inshore fisheries, but offshore they have muffed it, bad.

EJ

[Salty Gator]

Or maybe they are well educated and understand what the survey is about. Data, not taking away your rights

A better explanation would be they are just naive........

A better explanation is that they are biologists and know more about it than most on this board. Just keep bitchin about not getting to keep any snapper, and wonder why they think the rec anglers take so much. With this data they can get an accurate count of reef fish taken by non commercial anglers. This is a chance for us to let them know we aren't taking as much as they think we are. Without new data, they are going to use the old data. And we can look forward to another 9 day snapper season again this year.
Do you complain about the free migratory bird permit necessary to hunt dove? I just don't see what the problem is.

[Danibeth]

I'm going to preface this with the admission that I know almost next to nothing about the gulf reef fishery....that's said....out of the way....freely admitted....

EJ, I read the statutes and I interpret the exemptions a little differently than you do.

In regards to disabled individuals, not just veterans, the statute says (1) Hunting, freshwater fishing, and saltwater fishing licenses and permits shall be issued without fee to any resident who is certified or determined:

Since the gulf reef fish permit is free, seems like that follows that rule.

The next one was this:

(2) A hunting, freshwater fishing, or saltwater fishing license or permit is not required for:
...
(n) Any resident 65 years of age or older who has in her or his possession proof of age and residency. A no-cost license under this paragraph may be obtained from any tax collector’s office upon proof of age and residency and must be in the possession of the resident during hunting, freshwater fishing, and saltwater fishing activities.

While they may seem contradictory, and I won't argue that, I could see where the state could say, no actually you do have to have a license. Even if it is a one time, get it on your birthday when you turn 65 and celebrate never having to get another license in your hopefully very very very very long life. So, really I could see how the new permit, if required for forever would be just an update to the no cost license you already have to have in your possession while hunting or fishing, based on those statutes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/ind ... 9.353.html

That said, I'm not a lawyer, certainly not a lawyer for the state. That is just my interpretation of the law as it's presented in the Florida Statutes.

BUT, lets go with your scenario and you don't have to have a license at all, just a proof of residency and age. I may be making a big assumption here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but you think this information is important right? The info the state is trying to collect? If not then feel free to skip the rest and tell me I'm wrong in my assumption and I'll move on. If I am correct, how do you suggest collecting the information? I would guess the reason the state is doing this permit is the state wants the widest population base possible to poll from so they could get truly meaningful results. They certainly don't want to skew the results, or be accused of skewing the results, so it would stand to reason they'd want to choose from everyone who actually fishes the gulf reef fishery recreationally. And I may be incorrect about this, but the over 65 crowd may be a big part of that population since probably many/most are retirees who have the time to go out often. So how would you suggest the state go about polling the most people. You can't just poll salt water anglers because not all anglers fish the gulf or fish anything but inshore saltwater, that would just be a waste of emails/phone calls. I'd think that you'd want some way to single out the gulf reef fishermen from "the rest". If you're so against the way they're doing it now, how would you suggest it be done? That would collect the most meaningful and useful information for the state to hopefully make more informed policies in the future? And in your mind be legal? I'm not attacking, I'm just truly curious what your solution to this problem is.

Nor am I trying to trivialize your arguments because I can truly understand the "hassle" it would be for someone who had that one time license that shows you're over 65. But they should be in the system, presumably anyway, and so they could get online and get the permit IF they know about it. I do also understand there are people out there, and I have grandparents like this, that wouldn't know how to do that, even with step by step instructions (both written and pictures) because computers intimidate them or are just beyond their understanding or something like that. But I do know that I have family that would help my grandparents acquire whatever they needed and be done with it quite quickly. (I would guess though that those types of people are in the minority of the over 65 crowd...could be totally wrong.) I too have stood in line at walmart or sports authority or academy or dicks and waited while someone who didn't know how to use the system attempted to try to get me a license (typically my migratory bird permit) and it takes 30 minutes to get it and I thought well since i"m here, I'll go ahead and get it and it turns out to be one of the biggest headaches EVER. So, I can get that hassle. Truly can. But there are ways around most of those hassles so they aren't big hassles.

I would also guess that most LEOs out there will write warnings to people (who aren't jacklegs anyway) who don't have a permit the first time because they just didn't know. If they're over 65, don't read the license requirements, don't get the FWC emails (or like some that I do get, just don't read them), don't see posts like these on the internet, and I'm sure a plethora of other reasonable possibilities, LEO will most likely give warnings and educate people on how to get the permit and go on their way. It's a free permit. The state isn't getting anything out of it. Other than hopefully usable information.

Personally, I find it incredibly funny that people (not you specifically EJ since I don't know if you're one of these "people" as I really don't pay attention to the "who" in these types of discussions) whine and moan and complain and scream vehemently about how they know more than the biologisits, the biologists are using flawed data, biologists aren't out there and don't see what we see, and...and...and...and...the list goes on and on and on. The state is now attempting to "listen" to what the recreational fishermen have to say and now they're causing hassle, making it harder to get a license, restricting our rights, and i'm sure there are more arguments out there on how the state is trying to limit our rights. Seems to me people ought to be screaming FINALLY the state is at least making a show of listening to those of us who actually know what is going on. But that's just me.....

I don't have anything against this permit or potential survey. It's free. Took about an entire minute to obtain. And I'm always happy to help FWC out with surveys that I may have an opinion or knowledge on.

Danibeth

[countrycorners]

is that the longest post ever?

[onefishtwofish]

For informational purposes only, we duck hunters have been getting our HIP (one from each state you hunt) from the feds for years. We answer a brief survey and they give us our license. As far as I know, there has been no intrusion on our duck hunting rights or dissemination of the information. For the record the highest number of ducks is 11 and I always laugh when that ask if I killed more than 11. The local tag office girl just checks that now without even asking me.

I don't reef fish and understand the inconvenience is aggravating, but that is probably the only good argument against it. And I know the gubment will mess up the use of the data, but they do that with everything they touch.

Just thought some of ya'll that don't duck hunt would like to know it is no big deal for duck hunting.

[MudDucker]

For informational purposes only, we duck hunters have been getting our HIP (one from each state you hunt) from the feds for years. We answer a brief survey and they give us our license. As far as I know, there has been no intrusion on our duck hunting rights or dissemination of the information. For the record the highest number of ducks is 11 and I always laugh when that ask if I killed more than 11. The local tag office girl just checks that now without even asking me.

I don't reef fish and understand the inconvenience is aggravating, but that is probably the only good argument against it. And I know the gubment will mess up the use of the data, but they do that with everything they touch.

Just thought some of ya'll that don't duck hunt would like to know it is no big deal for duck hunting.

That is not really a survey, you answer those questions to get a required HIP permit.

I would agree that since there is no species delineation, the data is not used for much of anything. A fed told me several years ago that all it is used for is to come up with a swag numer of ducks killed. With the highest being 11 plus, it is really a joke to use it for that purpose.

[EddieJoe]

I don't have anything against this permit or potential survey. It's free. Took about an entire minute to obtain. And I'm always happy to help FWC out with surveys that I may have an opinion or knowledge on.

Danibeth

It's simple. If you are a Florida Resident, 65 and older, you carry your driver's license to prove it. If you don't have a license and need an I.D. to prove age and residency, they will issue one down at the Courthouse with proper documentation. You carry that, nothing else. No need to renew annually. The law says you are exempt from license and permit requirements, not just fees. Means you don't have to apply for one, obtain one, or carry one, just carry proof of residency. That's why its a big change for seniors to be expected to now carry an annual permit to fish. It's the equivalent of a license, without the fees, which the Commission has always wanted, but cannot otherwise get through the Legislature.

The phone survey based on Gulf Reef Fish Permit holders database is designed to capture effort. Like most any survey, this means an estimate based on a small sample that will give some measure of how many people are fishing for a period of time. You can also use that method to ask them about their catch. It's inherently a guess. Access point surveys will be necessary to gather better catch information, or some combination of both.

Everything is an estimate based on a sample. If you did not capture over 65 anglers, an expansion factor based on the % of the population they represent could be used. Same thing will have to be employed for young anglers, which the Commission is not requiring to have the permit. Lots of ways to do it without requiring a universal permit.

Question is: Is the juice worth the squeeze? Is it necessary to require a permit be annually acquired and carried by currently exempt anglers in order to conduct a usable survey? I don't think so.

Did the Legislature mean to have Disabled Vets and Seniors exempt when it passed the law? Well, yes, of course. Does this permit ignore that? Yes, it does. Does that bother, you. Guess not.

If I was required to buy a license annually it would not bother me at all to just check another box. No problem. Likewise, I would gladly voluntarily participate in a survey. Aready do. But for a lot of people, that will not be easy, or easily understood.

EJ

[Rhettley]

It's my understanding Louisiana has been surveying and are finding the feds best scientific information guesses are way over what LA is finding in actual surveys.

It's not perfect but it's better than what we have with the feds. I'm all for helping the Gulf States get back control of the Gulf and reef fishing. If this helps I'll spend a few minutes signing up and taking a phone or dock survey. It sure can't be any worse that the mess the feds have made.

As for over 65 and vets, if you want your kids and grandkids to fish get involved and change it if you don't like this. Right now it's our best option. I really hope yall participate. As I said, it's a whole lot better than the feds guesses that everyone with a salt water license fishes for reef fish a lot and catches their limit. I'm lucky to get out reef fishing 4 to 6 times a year but I bet the feds have my license pegged as twice that much with a limit every trip.

[Rhettley]

http://m.myfwc.com/news/news-releases/2 ... ng-survey/

[Salty Gator]

The law for over 65 folks is awful ambiguous. I always thought it was the way Dannibeth posted it. That anyone over 65 got a free license but still needed a licence. Mr EJ seems to have found it in print that over 65 don't need a license of any kind.
This seems to be a different issue than what oher people are upset about. Seems some think their rights are being taken away. Bottom line . It is now the law( talking those under 65). As an adult you can take the survey of not. If not you may get a ticket or something, but I'm sure I your principals are worth much more. So if you don't want to take the survey, don't take it. OR, you can let them know we are getting skunked on every grouper and snapper trip( wink) and need a longer season/ larger limits. This horse has been dead for a while

[woopty]

OR, you can let them know we are getting skunked on every grouper and snapper trip( wink) and need a longer season/ larger limits.

[Sun Daze]

Or maybe they are well educated and understand what the survey is about. Data, not taking away your rights

A better explanation would be they are just naive........

A better explanation is that they are biologists and know more about it than most on this board. Just keep bitchin about not getting to keep any snapper, and wonder why they think the rec anglers take so much. With this data they can get an accurate count of reef fish taken by non commercial anglers. This is a chance for us to let them know we aren't taking as much as they think we are. Without new data, they are going to use the old data. And we can look forward to another 9 day snapper season again this year.
Do you complain about the free migratory bird permit necessary to hunt dove? I just don't see what the problem is.

Show me where I bitched about a damn thing!!!! That's rights, you won't find it in this thread! I simply made a statement regarding your condescending remark about education levels! Thanks for continuing your holier than thou condescending assumptions.....

As for the data you think they will gleen from this, there are those of us old enough to remember how many times the data we've given the authorities have been used against us. That's the part you and those who support this simply can't wrap your heads around.... The powers that be have used our own cooperation against us too many times to list, yet you guys seem to think they have a benevolent agenda.... Well, those of us who are skeptical about this apparently live by the adage... Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. Therefor, maybe aren't too damn excited about the possibility of helping them screw us again!

[EddieJoe]

The law for over 65 folks is awful ambiguous. I always thought it was the way Dannibeth posted it. That anyone over 65 got a free license but still needed a licence. Mr EJ seems to have found it in print that over 65 don't need a license of any kind.
This horse has been dead for a while

It's no big deal not to know, as it didn't pertain to you right now, I assume. We looked forward to it, or at least I did, since I have been buying a license of some kind in Florida my whole life. One of those small perks for living here and so forth, and reaching the ripe old age. I feel much stronger about disabled vets, since I think they paid a price and the small gesture of thanks that the state gave them here is worth it retaining. Obviously, the FWC didn't see it that way. Gaining a tiny increase, potentially, in the precision of any estimate by forcing them to participate in a permit system, is, to me reprehensible. But that argument I have already made.

This subject is indeed about ripe, and I bet I have said everything at least once before. Sorry for my keeping on. I hope I can not bring it up again.

I hope to be talking about "Fish on!", rather than permit junk.

EJ